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| Bridge Gluing with Hide Glue http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=5346 |
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| Author: | RussellR [ Mon Feb 27, 2006 9:30 am ] |
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I just had my first experience of Glue Creep, with titebond on a bridge, The bridge had moved a good 1/2mm forwardand then started to lift away at the back. It fairness to the glue I think I may have had a contamination problem as the bridge came away from the top cleanly and all of the glue was left on the bridge, which suggested to me that maybe the glueing area of the top had something on it ? As a lot of you know I have been moving over to hide glue for bracing etc., so having read that Hide is much less prone to creep I thought that purhaps I should change to using it for attaching my bridges. I had a few questions : Is the bond strength of Hide Glue as strng as titebond ? Do you use it at the same consistancy for gluing bridges ? I use a clamp that John hall designed for attaching my bridges where two threaded posts come up through the outer pin holes and everything clamps down from there the only trouble is I think I probably won't be able to get everything in place and assembled in 45 Secs, if I keep gentle heat on the bridge with a hair dryer, do you think this would extend the open time ? Thank you very much in Advance. Russ |
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| Author: | JJ Donohue [ Mon Feb 27, 2006 9:53 am ] |
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Have courage, Russell! I'll bet you can get that glue time to around 30 seconds. Even 45 seconds could be close enough if the glue hasn't gelled prior to clamping. A few dry runs will give you the confidence and get your timing down. Your plan to heat the bridge is going in the right direction. |
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| Author: | crowduck [ Mon Feb 27, 2006 10:35 am ] |
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Russ, I use a food warming tray I bought in a thrift store or goodwill for about $5, mine has a 'hot spot' too. I put my parts, braces, bridge on it prior glueing to to warm them up. I'd use the hairdryer or heatgun on the guitar top where the bridge is going.......gently, not too hot. That should give a bit more 'open time' with HHG. I've been looking at the LMI Vacuum Bridge Clamp lately, and thinking I might be able to make one of my own. I've seen one in action, and they work great, very fast. CrowDuck |
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| Author: | Alain Desforges [ Mon Feb 27, 2006 10:47 am ] |
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Don't worry about the strength of the joint. Hide glue is as strong if not stronger than Titebond. |
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| Author: | Mark Swanson [ Mon Feb 27, 2006 11:19 am ] |
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I agree with the suggestions here. I warm my bridge up over a lightbulb on the lamp above my workbench! I have to hurry when I glue a bridge down, it's colder in my shop this time of year but if I prepare everything I can do it. I also warm the top a bit with a hair dryer. One thing I've not heard here yet- very important! I swear - as do others, that my guitars sound better with a hide glued bridge, just as they do when you use it for top bracing. I think you should try it, you won't be sorry! |
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| Author: | LanceK [ Mon Feb 27, 2006 11:26 am ] |
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I also have used HHG for my bridges, one thing that has really helped me time wise, was getting a vacuume clamping sytstem for my bridge, it takes all of 30 15 seconds to plop down the vacuume and hit the button. I know you have a little more working room than that, but I do feel better using this method. Also, I preheat my bridges in the microwave. 30 seconds more than enough 
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| Author: | crowduck [ Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:04 pm ] |
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Lance, Do you have the LMI vacuum rig? I really wonder how hard it would be to make one? LMI's uses a 2 piece aluminum frame with a membrane sandwiched between, fitting for the vacuum hose, and a foam rubber type gasket on the bottom. Seems to me it could be make up from Lexan instead of aluminum, and LMI sells the membrane by the foot. If you have a chance, could you post some closeup pics of your bridge vacuum? LMI's pics don't show much detail. LMI's rig sells for $88, which isn't too bad, but the vacuum compresser is about $400 which is the killer. Someone on another thread posted about using a vacuum compressor from a frig or air conditioner that can be had for free or cheap used. Oh well, I'm off on another project. CrowDuck |
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| Author: | John Mayes [ Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:58 pm ] |
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You can get a Gast vac-pump off ebay for under $75 that will be more than enough. I've got two of them. One small one for my binding set-up and one larger one I was using with my vac-press before I went back to go-bars. |
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| Author: | Rod True [ Mon Feb 27, 2006 1:10 pm ] |
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[QUOTE=John Mayes] One small one for my binding set-up.........[/QUOTE] Ok John, you can't just throw this in there and not explain. What's your binding set-up? Do you glue the binding on, tape and throw the whole body in a bad and suck it all on there? Please please please tell. |
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| Author: | crowduck [ Mon Feb 27, 2006 1:19 pm ] |
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John, Thanks for that tip on the pump. Rod, Buy or rent the Mayes binding video, that will show it all. CrowDuck |
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| Author: | John Mayes [ Mon Feb 27, 2006 1:27 pm ] |
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no it is for cutting binding ledges. My sled/holder for the body while under the router consists of 4 vacuum cups, that is angle adjustable with pre-step stops for my guitars. |
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| Author: | Rod True [ Mon Feb 27, 2006 3:14 pm ] |
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Ah, cool. I thought you were going to tell us that you've come up with a new way to install the binding using vacuum. Now that would be something. |
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| Author: | Cocephus [ Mon Feb 27, 2006 3:54 pm ] |
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 Shake and Bake binding? Ooh, that`s bad, Coe
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| Author: | Colin S [ Mon Feb 27, 2006 8:42 pm ] |
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Russell, I had this worry as well, but it turned out to be unfounded. Get the bridge nice and hot, the food warmer tray sounds a good idea, I must test the temp of that, have your registration pins in holes 2&5 as your using the clamp through 1&6 and the bridge should stay where you put it while getting the clamp tight. As always, practice on a spare piece of wood on a bit of ply, and have everything to hand. Colin |
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| Author: | Dave White [ Mon Feb 27, 2006 8:51 pm ] |
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I'm going to have to pluck up the courage and do this but with pinless bridges you don't have the luxury of the plastic pins to hold it in place. I build up a template with low tac masking tape and the grab factor of the hhg should help here. The bit I struggle most with in terms of a "quick fit" is the bridge plate caul, getting it in the right position between the clamp and bridgeplate. How do you guys (and gals) deal with this aspect? Do yo have the cauls attached to the clamp bottom with double sided tape etc? |
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| Author: | Colin S [ Mon Feb 27, 2006 9:08 pm ] |
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Dave I use the Ibex clamp for my bridges together with one of Stew Macs bridge clamps (ironic eh!). I have drilled and tapped the Ibex clamps lower face so that I can screw the appropriate caul to it I them just have to rotate the caul into position when passed through the sound hole so that it's at right angles to the clamp. I tried it with tape but couldnt get it easily through the sound hole. Tighten the clamp and them tighten the two outer fasteners of the SM bridge clamp to clamp the bridge wings. Only one clamp to feed through the sound hole. 
Sorry no caul attached, old picture pre modification, I hope I've explained it OK. Colin |
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| Author: | Dave White [ Mon Feb 27, 2006 10:10 pm ] |
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Colin, Much gracias!! I use the Stew Mac bridge clamp and the Ibex clamp so that would be perfect. I'll "tap up" the Ibex. What do you use for the caul? Up to now I've used birch ply, but have been thinking of making one from chopping board plastic. By the way I've always found Stew Mac to be very good to deal with so I hope they "do the decent" with you on the circle cutter. I think under the circumstances you described I'd be a little "grumpy" too!! |
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| Author: | Colin S [ Mon Feb 27, 2006 10:26 pm ] |
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Dave I've used birch ply as well, but your idea of chopping board plastic is good, may give that a go on the next one. I'm starting my first clasical so I need a new caul. Don't forget you'll have to drill from the outside of the clamp to get access. I've also covered the inside egde of the Ibex with self adhesive foam to protect the sound hole edge, from my butter-fingers! Colin |
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| Author: | LanceK [ Mon Feb 27, 2006 11:41 pm ] |
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[QUOTE=crowduck] Lance, Do you have the LMI vacuum rig? I really wonder how hard it would be to make one? CrowDuck[/QUOTE] I actualy use a home made jig, Don Williams made it for me and it works great!
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| Author: | Mattia Valente [ Tue Feb 28, 2006 3:24 am ] |
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I'm a total newb at this game, relatively speaking, but I found getting 4 cam clamps (yes, 4) in place in short order was no problem at all. I used titebond on that first bridge, though. |
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| Author: | Tom Harbin [ Tue Feb 28, 2006 3:42 am ] |
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John: Which pumps do you use? Are some of them easier to adapt to luthier uses than others. I just looked on ebay and there are many different models. thanks for the info> Tom |
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| Author: | RussellR [ Tue Feb 28, 2006 7:22 am ] |
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Thanks Everyone, I really appreciatte your help. |
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| Author: | crowduck [ Tue Feb 28, 2006 7:33 am ] |
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Lance, Thanks for the pic! That confirms my thinking, it doesn't look that hard to make. Now, yet another project to deal with, but this stuff is great fun. CrowDuck |
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| Author: | Frank Ford [ Tue Feb 28, 2006 10:43 am ] |
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If you'd like to have a few minutes of working time, just toss the bridge in a microwave oven for few seconds (15 seconds with our weenie countertop model) and get it up to about 150 degrees F. You'll have all the time you need to glue up. . . |
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| Author: | John Mayes [ Tue Feb 28, 2006 11:27 am ] |
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I have one like this (on my binding rig) http://cgi.ebay.com/GAST-DIAPHRAGM-VACUUM-PUMP- COMPRESSOR_W0QQitemZ7591986623QQcategoryZ109622QQrdZ1QQc mdZViewItem and one similar to this one (mine is actually a different, and larger model, but dual piston type) for my vac-press which I don't use anymore. http://cgi.ebay.com/VACUUM-PUMP-GAST-SAA-P104- HB_W0QQitemZ7593896846QQcategoryZ109622QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewIte m Both pumps are "plug and play" meaning get some 1/4 tubing from ace hardware, plug one end on the pump, and the other on your jig, turn it one and away you go. |
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